Saul: You know, there was a time (NES, SNES days) when Nintendo games where considered cutting edge in all their aspects. Heck, it wasn't really until the N64/Playstation era when other companies (such as Konami and Electronic Arts) really started blowing past Nintendo in terms of presentation and story.
Now, if you've owned nothing but Nintendo consoles and buy nothing but Nintendo games, it may not be as obvious to you, but video games have evolved into more complete forms of entertainment. In a sense, they have become the equivalent of interactive movie-like software. While this may or may not be a good thing, it's obvious that simply throwing Mario into the Mushroom Kingdom to rescue the princess from Bowser so that you can receive a cake won't cut it, at least not with folks who aren't hardcore Nintendo fans.
Marc: I have to agree that Nintendo needs to update itself as some of their games really lack in the presentation department. Sure, for a real hardcore gamer it might not be that important since, after all, the only thing that should matter is gameplay, but when a game has huge production values it can make it better and also sell more.
It's like with movies: some have very low production values but have a very good script and some people will call it the best movie of the year, but most people will prefer the big 150 million dollars movie just because it looks good, has very popular actors and awesome special effects.
Nick: I agree with Marc, game players simply expect more from games than they used too. They've seen and expect a full cinematic experience, and they want more than to just to play a video game. What does this mean? More cut-scenes, I'm not talking about the one minute in-game stuff but full blown rendered movies, they want serious voice over work that fits the in-game characters and they want all the graphical extras we've come to expect from other games. Of course this is all icing on the cake; solid game play is and always will be the core of every good game, but Nintendo has never had a problem with this.
Saul: My first non-Nintendo console was a Dreamcast, and it only took one game (Shenmue) to show me how much more engrossing games can be when developers put effort into presentation, music, and story. Now I hate to bring in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes into this discussion, because it really is one of the best games I've ever played, but how much better would Prime have been with extended cut-scenes, voice acting for the Luminoth, and maybe a narrator? It's not that Nintendo's games lack anything significant, it's about making the best possible product, and Nintendo should focus on having games that are cutting edge in every aspect, like they used to.
Marc: For example, let's compare both Halo 2 and Metroid Prime 2. Both are first-person shooters and they are the 2 biggest games of the holidays for both Microsoft and Nintendo. Sure, Microsoft is more popular than Nintendo right now since the GameCube is slowly dying (unfortunately), but Halo 2 sold over 2 million units in a single day and people lined up outside of stores at midnight to get their copies while I'm not even sure if Metroid Prime 2 will be able to sell over a million and a half.
Well, I don't know if that was a good comparison, but anyway, what I wanted to say was that Halo 2 had huge production values, voice acting, orchestrated music, big name actors to do the voice acting, slick menus... name it and this game has it, plus online play. Both mainstream and hardcore gamers want it. Now, let's take a look at Prime 2. The only thing it has in common is the slick menus. No voice acting, no orchestrated music (even though that might not be the kind of music you'd want in a Metroid game), no big name actors behind it and not the most appealing game to the mainstream audience. Sure, it might be one of the most amazing games on the Cube, or even better, of this generation, it has an amazing art style and all, it's every hardcore gamer's dream, but still it doesn't appeal to the mainstream audience because of the production value and because of it's presentation. It's not "in" enough.
Nick: It seems that at times Nintendo just refuses to listen to their fans and ignores what's going on in the industry. In this way, Nintendo has been very stubborn and resistant to change. By adding small details like the ones mentioned above, I think Nintendo could improve the immersion and presentation their games offer considerably. It's hard to build characters or flesh out stories during game play, the player is just not focused on it. That's why it's important to take care of some of the story components outside the game play, when the player isn't worried about playing. If you look around presentation is often one of the only elements separating Nintendo's games from the competition who get much more attention these days. Nintendo fans know Metroid is better than Halo and that the Zelda games can easily be compared to the Final Fantasy series.
Marc: But that's not the only problem Nintendo has. Mario Party for example is always the exact same thing. Sure, it does sell a lot of copies, but soon enough it will start selling less and less unless Nintendo does something about it and updates its design.
And why is it that Nintendo is always re-using the same music or stories of elements in their games all the time? Some of it is nostalgic and all, but most gamers these days don't give a darn about it, they want their licensed music and big actors and violence. I really think that if Nintendo doesn't update its way of thinking and developing games then they might become the next Sega, or maybe the next SNK.
Saul: I think that Nintendo needs to create some new classics (along the lines of Metroid Prime), and doing so requires using the latest technology and story-telling techniques, and combining them with classic Nintendo gameplay. Many of the things we're asking for, though, are things that mainstream gamers want. I think Nintendo is more interested in carving itself a niche market than going mainstream.
Marc: I don't think it would be difficult for them to add FMVs to their Zelda games as mainstream gamers really dig those things, or maybe develop a racing games and put lots of licensed cars and music in it, or develop an online Mario Kart game. Nintendo's got all the resources needed for that, even more than any other company on earth and yet, they move slower than anyone else.
It does seem like they are starting to change a little though and it was about time as we are seeing them trying to appeal more to the mainstream audience. DS is a very good example of this as the touch gameplay makes it easier for people who are not that much into games to enjoy them anyway. It's a simple concept but yet it works. We need more ideas like those, but developed into big things that appeal to today's market.
Microsoft knew about this and that's why they are second this gen. Nintendo needs to understand how to make their stuff look "cool" just like Sony and Microsoft do.
Nick: In a way, I think Nintendo's current philosophy, that is, to almost totally focus on innovation, has been detrimental to their games. Now, innovation should never be overlooked and Nintendo has and will for the foreseeable future, lead in this department. There isn't one developer out there who can compete with Nintendo in this area. Their games always offer something new and totally unexpected. Games like Pikmin, Animal Crossing and Donkey Conga all had me saying, "who thinks of this stuff?" but maybe it's time to mix this innovation with some of the stuff currently going on around the industry. By adding more voices, narration, rendered cut scenes we could see and hear Mario, Link and the others in a new light. This is all stuff we are used to seeing, even in sub-par games. It's time for Nintendo to pay attention to peripheral details and put a little more polish on top of their already quality games.
Marc: I agree with you, Nintendo seems to focus too much on innovation. The problem with that is that even though the more hardcore gamers like us will appreciate what they are doing to the industry (same thing with developers), the mainstream audience won't care at all. I'm not saying that a mainstream game like Grand Theft Auto San Andreas doesn't offer new innovative gameplay as it really does and I think Rockstar North has done an amazing job with this game, but new things like the GBA to GC link that we saw in Legend of Zelda Four Swords Adventures was really a step forward in my opinion and I think that this truly is innovation and that it did add to the game a lot. Without that feature the game wouldn't have been as fun to me. Sure, it might seem like a gimmick to most people at first and maybe Nintendo could have found some way around it, but when I was playing this game with my friends, the connectivity feature really made it fun and I don't see how we could have had a better time!
Sony's Eyetoy, for example, might seem like another gimmick but it is selling millions of copies worldwide and I know of a lot of mainstream gamers who like this game and yet, I thought it got old quickly. But still, this is the kind of innovation that gamers seem to like and I think that with the touch gameplay of the DS Nintendo has made a step in the right direction. Even Nintendo President Satoru Iwata said that more and more gamers over 19 were buying the unit and that it seemed to attract more female gamers so the DS has worked in bringing more people to gaming.
Saul: Going back to the Sega comparison, I simply think Sega got too hardcore for its own good. Sonic is really their mainstream franchise, but even their sports games are clearly intended for the hardcore audience. Now, this is why Sega has tons of hardcore fans who love games like Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio (I love those games too), but it's also the reason they had to drop out of the console race. Their titles simply aren't geared toward the average gamer.
Now, Nintendo on the other hand, has more franchises that would appeal to an average gamer. The problem is getting image-conscious consumers to purchase Nintendo products when the perception is that their games are geared towards a younger audience. This is where a boost in story, presentation, and overall production values would greatly enhance Nintendo's image. Improved marketing wouldn't hurt, either.
Marc: People like simplicity, yet they demand innovation at the same time. I think that's what makes it difficult for game companies to really give gamers new experiences while keeping everything as simple as possible. Sure they can add as much to the presentation of a game as possible by paying big name actors like Samuel L Jackson to play in GTASA and then to pay all of the artists to have their songs in the game, but what is the most important aspect of the game is still gameplay. Everything else is just icing on the cake. There's a reason why a game like Super Mario Bros that has been re-released on GBA has sold more copies than many games released this year. It doesn't offer anything in the presentation department, but its gameplay is still intact and that's what makes it a great game, along with the nostalgia of course.
Nick: I have to say whenever I start up a game and hear an old Nintendo tune from the 80's or 90's, I get all nostalgic. In an instant, I know what I'm playing. In my opinion there is nothing as instantly recognizable as a good theme and I have no problem with Nintendo throwing in the old music as long as it's used sparingly, menus maybe?. With that said, Nintendo should really develop new music for every game they release. The music should complement what is going on in the game and should be written specifically for that scene, level or location.
Marc: I think people ask more to the presentation just for the sake of it, but when they start the game they don't care anymore. As long as they see it on the box of the game they're happy with it. It's the same reason Jerry Bruckheimer movies are so hugely popular; they all have big actors and huge production values, but they never win any Oscars. People go see these movies not because of the story, but because of the presentation. I like Jerry's movies a lot, in fact, I own lots of them, but I also like stuff like Amelie even though all it has is a good director which isn't even that well known.
Still, I hope Nintendo does something to improve presentation of its game as I really think it's the only thing they are missing.
Now, if you've owned nothing but Nintendo consoles and buy nothing but Nintendo games, it may not be as obvious to you, but video games have evolved into more complete forms of entertainment. In a sense, they have become the equivalent of interactive movie-like software. While this may or may not be a good thing, it's obvious that simply throwing Mario into the Mushroom Kingdom to rescue the princess from Bowser so that you can receive a cake won't cut it, at least not with folks who aren't hardcore Nintendo fans.
Marc: I have to agree that Nintendo needs to update itself as some of their games really lack in the presentation department. Sure, for a real hardcore gamer it might not be that important since, after all, the only thing that should matter is gameplay, but when a game has huge production values it can make it better and also sell more.
It's like with movies: some have very low production values but have a very good script and some people will call it the best movie of the year, but most people will prefer the big 150 million dollars movie just because it looks good, has very popular actors and awesome special effects.
Nick: I agree with Marc, game players simply expect more from games than they used too. They've seen and expect a full cinematic experience, and they want more than to just to play a video game. What does this mean? More cut-scenes, I'm not talking about the one minute in-game stuff but full blown rendered movies, they want serious voice over work that fits the in-game characters and they want all the graphical extras we've come to expect from other games. Of course this is all icing on the cake; solid game play is and always will be the core of every good game, but Nintendo has never had a problem with this.
Saul: My first non-Nintendo console was a Dreamcast, and it only took one game (Shenmue) to show me how much more engrossing games can be when developers put effort into presentation, music, and story. Now I hate to bring in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes into this discussion, because it really is one of the best games I've ever played, but how much better would Prime have been with extended cut-scenes, voice acting for the Luminoth, and maybe a narrator? It's not that Nintendo's games lack anything significant, it's about making the best possible product, and Nintendo should focus on having games that are cutting edge in every aspect, like they used to.
Marc: For example, let's compare both Halo 2 and Metroid Prime 2. Both are first-person shooters and they are the 2 biggest games of the holidays for both Microsoft and Nintendo. Sure, Microsoft is more popular than Nintendo right now since the GameCube is slowly dying (unfortunately), but Halo 2 sold over 2 million units in a single day and people lined up outside of stores at midnight to get their copies while I'm not even sure if Metroid Prime 2 will be able to sell over a million and a half.
Well, I don't know if that was a good comparison, but anyway, what I wanted to say was that Halo 2 had huge production values, voice acting, orchestrated music, big name actors to do the voice acting, slick menus... name it and this game has it, plus online play. Both mainstream and hardcore gamers want it. Now, let's take a look at Prime 2. The only thing it has in common is the slick menus. No voice acting, no orchestrated music (even though that might not be the kind of music you'd want in a Metroid game), no big name actors behind it and not the most appealing game to the mainstream audience. Sure, it might be one of the most amazing games on the Cube, or even better, of this generation, it has an amazing art style and all, it's every hardcore gamer's dream, but still it doesn't appeal to the mainstream audience because of the production value and because of it's presentation. It's not "in" enough.
Nick: It seems that at times Nintendo just refuses to listen to their fans and ignores what's going on in the industry. In this way, Nintendo has been very stubborn and resistant to change. By adding small details like the ones mentioned above, I think Nintendo could improve the immersion and presentation their games offer considerably. It's hard to build characters or flesh out stories during game play, the player is just not focused on it. That's why it's important to take care of some of the story components outside the game play, when the player isn't worried about playing. If you look around presentation is often one of the only elements separating Nintendo's games from the competition who get much more attention these days. Nintendo fans know Metroid is better than Halo and that the Zelda games can easily be compared to the Final Fantasy series.
Marc: But that's not the only problem Nintendo has. Mario Party for example is always the exact same thing. Sure, it does sell a lot of copies, but soon enough it will start selling less and less unless Nintendo does something about it and updates its design.
And why is it that Nintendo is always re-using the same music or stories of elements in their games all the time? Some of it is nostalgic and all, but most gamers these days don't give a darn about it, they want their licensed music and big actors and violence. I really think that if Nintendo doesn't update its way of thinking and developing games then they might become the next Sega, or maybe the next SNK.
Saul: I think that Nintendo needs to create some new classics (along the lines of Metroid Prime), and doing so requires using the latest technology and story-telling techniques, and combining them with classic Nintendo gameplay. Many of the things we're asking for, though, are things that mainstream gamers want. I think Nintendo is more interested in carving itself a niche market than going mainstream.
Marc: I don't think it would be difficult for them to add FMVs to their Zelda games as mainstream gamers really dig those things, or maybe develop a racing games and put lots of licensed cars and music in it, or develop an online Mario Kart game. Nintendo's got all the resources needed for that, even more than any other company on earth and yet, they move slower than anyone else.
It does seem like they are starting to change a little though and it was about time as we are seeing them trying to appeal more to the mainstream audience. DS is a very good example of this as the touch gameplay makes it easier for people who are not that much into games to enjoy them anyway. It's a simple concept but yet it works. We need more ideas like those, but developed into big things that appeal to today's market.
Microsoft knew about this and that's why they are second this gen. Nintendo needs to understand how to make their stuff look "cool" just like Sony and Microsoft do.
Nick: In a way, I think Nintendo's current philosophy, that is, to almost totally focus on innovation, has been detrimental to their games. Now, innovation should never be overlooked and Nintendo has and will for the foreseeable future, lead in this department. There isn't one developer out there who can compete with Nintendo in this area. Their games always offer something new and totally unexpected. Games like Pikmin, Animal Crossing and Donkey Conga all had me saying, "who thinks of this stuff?" but maybe it's time to mix this innovation with some of the stuff currently going on around the industry. By adding more voices, narration, rendered cut scenes we could see and hear Mario, Link and the others in a new light. This is all stuff we are used to seeing, even in sub-par games. It's time for Nintendo to pay attention to peripheral details and put a little more polish on top of their already quality games.
Marc: I agree with you, Nintendo seems to focus too much on innovation. The problem with that is that even though the more hardcore gamers like us will appreciate what they are doing to the industry (same thing with developers), the mainstream audience won't care at all. I'm not saying that a mainstream game like Grand Theft Auto San Andreas doesn't offer new innovative gameplay as it really does and I think Rockstar North has done an amazing job with this game, but new things like the GBA to GC link that we saw in Legend of Zelda Four Swords Adventures was really a step forward in my opinion and I think that this truly is innovation and that it did add to the game a lot. Without that feature the game wouldn't have been as fun to me. Sure, it might seem like a gimmick to most people at first and maybe Nintendo could have found some way around it, but when I was playing this game with my friends, the connectivity feature really made it fun and I don't see how we could have had a better time!
Sony's Eyetoy, for example, might seem like another gimmick but it is selling millions of copies worldwide and I know of a lot of mainstream gamers who like this game and yet, I thought it got old quickly. But still, this is the kind of innovation that gamers seem to like and I think that with the touch gameplay of the DS Nintendo has made a step in the right direction. Even Nintendo President Satoru Iwata said that more and more gamers over 19 were buying the unit and that it seemed to attract more female gamers so the DS has worked in bringing more people to gaming.
Saul: Going back to the Sega comparison, I simply think Sega got too hardcore for its own good. Sonic is really their mainstream franchise, but even their sports games are clearly intended for the hardcore audience. Now, this is why Sega has tons of hardcore fans who love games like Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio (I love those games too), but it's also the reason they had to drop out of the console race. Their titles simply aren't geared toward the average gamer.
Now, Nintendo on the other hand, has more franchises that would appeal to an average gamer. The problem is getting image-conscious consumers to purchase Nintendo products when the perception is that their games are geared towards a younger audience. This is where a boost in story, presentation, and overall production values would greatly enhance Nintendo's image. Improved marketing wouldn't hurt, either.
Marc: People like simplicity, yet they demand innovation at the same time. I think that's what makes it difficult for game companies to really give gamers new experiences while keeping everything as simple as possible. Sure they can add as much to the presentation of a game as possible by paying big name actors like Samuel L Jackson to play in GTASA and then to pay all of the artists to have their songs in the game, but what is the most important aspect of the game is still gameplay. Everything else is just icing on the cake. There's a reason why a game like Super Mario Bros that has been re-released on GBA has sold more copies than many games released this year. It doesn't offer anything in the presentation department, but its gameplay is still intact and that's what makes it a great game, along with the nostalgia of course.
Nick: I have to say whenever I start up a game and hear an old Nintendo tune from the 80's or 90's, I get all nostalgic. In an instant, I know what I'm playing. In my opinion there is nothing as instantly recognizable as a good theme and I have no problem with Nintendo throwing in the old music as long as it's used sparingly, menus maybe?. With that said, Nintendo should really develop new music for every game they release. The music should complement what is going on in the game and should be written specifically for that scene, level or location.
Marc: I think people ask more to the presentation just for the sake of it, but when they start the game they don't care anymore. As long as they see it on the box of the game they're happy with it. It's the same reason Jerry Bruckheimer movies are so hugely popular; they all have big actors and huge production values, but they never win any Oscars. People go see these movies not because of the story, but because of the presentation. I like Jerry's movies a lot, in fact, I own lots of them, but I also like stuff like Amelie even though all it has is a good director which isn't even that well known.
Still, I hope Nintendo does something to improve presentation of its game as I really think it's the only thing they are missing.
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